Administering Justice in Yellowstone - Part 1

In Part One of this multi-part series, Tales from the 10th explores the unique administration of federal justice inside Yellowstone National Park, one of the only places in the country with a full-time magistrate judge and federal courthouse located entirely within a national park.

Host Erin Gust is joined by Yellowstone Magistrate Judge Stephanie Hambrick and former Magistrate Judge Mark Carman to trace the court’s origins, its evolution, and the realities of modern judicial life in the park. The episode begins with the court’s 19th-century roots, including the passage of the 1894 Lacey Act following rampant poaching and the arrest of infamous bison poacher Ed Howell. That legislation not only protected Yellowstone’s wildlife and resources but also created the commissioner role that would later become today’s magistrate judge position.

The judges discuss John Meldrum, Yellowstone’s first magistrate judge, whose 41-year tenure spanned stagecoach robberies, Prohibition, and World War I, and whose home doubled as a courthouse and jail. From there, the conversation moves into the present day, examining the modern Yellowstone docket—ranging from traffic violations and DUIs to wildlife harassment, thermal trespass, and visitor safety cases.

Judge Hambrick and Judge Carman explain how Yellowstone’s court operates differently from most federal courts, including its unique local rule allowing any licensed U.S. attorney to appear without special admission, the frequent use of video hearings and interpreters, and the logistical challenges posed by geography, tourism, and limited cell service. They also describe the park’s small detention facility, seasonal caseload fluctuations, and the close working relationships between the court, park rangers, and the U.S. Attorney’s Office—all housed in the same building.

The episode highlights Judge Carman’s innovative sentencing approaches aimed at education and rehabilitation, particularly for young seasonal workers, and reflects on how policy shifts, COVID-19, and changes in park infrastructure have altered enforcement and court practices over time.

Part One concludes with personal reflections from both judges on their paths to the Yellowstone bench, the challenges and rewards of serving in such an isolated and iconic setting, and why the Yellowstone magistrate judgeship is widely regarded as one of the most unique and coveted judicial positions in the country.

Transcript

Yellowstone Episode 1 57 Min

[00:00:00] 

 Hello and welcome to Tale from the 10th. I'm your host, Aaron Gust. Today in part one of a multi-part series, we're exploring how the Federal Justice System operates in one of America's most iconic landscapes, Yellowstone National Park. Yellowstone is home to a United States magistrate Judge in a unique federal courthouse.

The Magistrate Judge position dates back to the 1890s established to safeguard the park's, wildlife, and natural resources Judge John Meldrum, known as the grand old man of Yellowstone, served as the park's first magistrate judge, presiding over early cases that range from poaching to an 1897 stagecoach robbery.

On this episode, I'm joined by Judge Stephanie Hambrick, the current Yellowstone Magistrate Judge. And Judge Mark Carmen, who [00:01:00] formerly held the role. Together, we'll trace the court's origins, examine its modern docket, and discuss what it means to administer justice in the heart of Yellowstone. Thank you so much for joining me, judge Hambrick and Judge Carmen.

Judge Hambrick: Thank you for having us. 

Judge Carman: Pleasure. 

Erin Gust: So to start off, most national parks do not have a magistrate, judge and federal courthouse.

Why is there one in Yellowstone?

Judge Carman: You've covered a little bit about the history. The park was created in 1872, but there was no laws or ability to protect it. In fact, the Park Service did not exist and nor had the Congress allocated funds for the protection of the park.

So, there was very few people in the park that represented the federal government. And so, the park continued to be plundered and poached, very extensively. It just so happens in 1894; it came to a head when a gentleman named Ed Howell. He was a very famous, I should say notorious poacher in the [00:02:00] park, was captured in Pelican Valley, by, the military.

The military actually, came to the park, around 18, late 1880s. And they were responsible for the park until, the Park Service was created in 1916. And so, Ed Howell was arrested, having poached bison in Pelican Valley, this was in March. So, it was in the wintertime in a very remote area of Yellowstone.

But while they caught him and they were able to apprehend him, there was nothing they could do about him because there was no laws in place. And it is kind of interesting because that occurred on March 14th. It so happened that there was a reporter there, from a magazine. Forest and Stream, it was a magazine had a reporter and the reporter did an article about, the capture of Ed Howell and the inability of the park to do anything about it. And that article was published, and it created, somewhat of a national furor.

And so, a guy named, Lacey, he was a representative from maybe Iowa, Indiana, I'm not positive on [00:03:00] that. Introduced the Lacey Act of, 1984. We're all familiar with the other Lacey Act, the more famous Lacey Act regarding the transportation of, certain animal or animal parts across, state lines.

But this was the Lacey Act of 1894. And it, the first time created laws that protected Yellowstone, protected the wildlife, the resources, it, for forbid hunting in the park. It did allow for fishing, but limited on how that would occur., In addition, creating protections it wanted to create a mechanism by which the park could be protected, and they created a commissioner position, and commissioner is the old title that ultimately became, magistrate judge. And so that position was created and also some funds were allocated to build a house and an office. And that building still stands in Yellowstone. And so that law, was passed, only 54 days after Ed Howell's arrest. That's how quickly they acted.

Erin Gust: Wow. Congress really getting after it.

Judge Carman: Yeah. We, we wouldn't see that today, would we? 

Erin Gust: [00:04:00] No. 

Judge Carman: The other thing the act did was it, it placed all of Yellowstone National Park within, the District of Wyoming. So, it's the only federal district that crosses the state line.

When Yellowstone was created, there were no states. And so, it is considered a federal enclave, meaning that there is no state jurisdiction within the park. So, Judge Riner was actually the district court judge at the time, in Cheyenne, and he appointed a gentleman named John Meldrum, who you mentioned, and he did become known, became known as the Grand Old Man of Yellowstone, because he served in that position for 41 years, which is a phenomenal tenure.

He was not, he was not a young man when he took the job. He was actually a Civil War veteran and had been active.

Erin Gust: Wow, 

Judge Carman: Yeah, and he was a wheelwright. He was actually a clerk of court in Rawlins, Wyoming, and he was, the Lieutenant Governor, for a period of time when Wyoming was a territory.

A little tidbit was that he was acting as governor when the telegram arrived, indicating that [00:05:00] Wyoming had been granted statehood. So anyway, he asked for the position. My understanding is he wrote a letter to Judge Riner saying, you know who I am. I would like the appointment.

That was his resume, and Judge Riner granted it, and it was a fortuitous appointment. I've read as much as I could find on him. I've studied his papers. Both those I could find in the Heritage Center in Laramie, the archives of the Park Service, , I've tried to locate anything I could about Judge Meldrum and I came to, , have a great amount of respect for the man.

He was not a lawyer. He was not legally trained. He arrived in December of 1894. The house was under construction, He was unhappy with the progress, So he took over and, corrected what he considered deficiencies in the workmanship. The house is actually the house that I moved into when I came to Yellowstone.

So, all the judges had lived in the same house up until, about 2016 I was asked to move over to what's called Officer's Row because they were a little concerned about [00:06:00] lack of security and being a little remote. That house is somewhat offset and right at the base of the terraces.

They also, put three jail cells in that house that were located in the back corner of the house. So, it was his home, his office, and the jail. Judge Meldrum was not pleased to have the jail in his house.

Erin Gust: Yeah, I can imagine that.

Judge Carman: And it really wasn't necessary because since, it was a military base at that point in time, a fort, it had its own brig or stockade, so they didn't really need the jail.

And I can't find any solid reference that they ever put anybody in that jail. But he assumed that position and, served in it for 41 years, which you have to understand from 1894, that goes all the way from stagecoach robberies, such as you mentioned, all the way through, prohibition World War I, I mean, so much happened during his tenure.

And he is honored, by having a mountain in the northwest corner of Yellowstone named after him, I [00:07:00] believe, but cannot prove that it's the only mountain I could figure out or find that is named for a judge who did not have some other role, such as a governor or a president or whatever. So, there was judge, Mount Meldrum.

I don't think it had the judge. It's just Mount Meldrum. So he was, a remarkable character and a very kind, gentleman by all accounts. 

Erin Gust: And you mentioned he had the letters. Could you tell us a little bit about that and what you've learned from those letters? 

Judge Carman: Well, a lot of his correspondence was with the US Attorney in Cheyenne.

It was a different time and ex parte communications apparently were far more common. , So he would often write letters to the US Attorney in Cheyenne asking what do I do about this? A couple of examples. One that was one of my favorites is he wrote during prohibition where he said that they had captured a bootlegger with a fair amount of alcohol.

And he said there was some junk moonshine, but that there was some, gin and whiskey of a very fine quality. And he wanted to know if it could be put [00:08:00] to some other use than simply being destroyed. And, Judge Hambrick is a former US Attorney, so I say this with some caution, but you know, US Attorneys are not known for their flexibility.

And so he immediately wrote back and said, you have to destroy all the whiskey, including the good stuff. 

Erin Gust: Wow, so fascinating, such an interesting man and no legal background and kind of the prohibition to stagecoach robberies to World War I, I mean, just incredible. 41 years, I feel like even today you don't necessarily hear of tenures that long from judges.

So, to be back then is really impressive.

Judge Hambrick: Generally, the magistrate judges in the park have had fairly long tenures. I think Judge Carman's is one of the shortest at how many years did you?

Judge Carman: Nine years.

Judge Hambrick: Nine years. But before that, I think the judge had been there about 25 years.

And so, there are some very lengthy tenures for the judges in the park. 

Judge Carman: Because I was only the fifth person to hold the position and [00:09:00] Judge Hambrick is the sixth. 

Erin Gust: Yeah. Not, not very many. And I guess, and we'll get into this, but living in Yellowstone, I'm sure, it's got to be an incredible job.

So, something you want to stick with. 

Judge Hambrick: Oh, its very coveted position, so, yeah. For good reason.

Erin Gust: So where exactly in Yellowstone is the courthouse located? 

Judge Hambrick: So, the current courthouse is located in Mammoth Hot Springs, just inside the north entrance of the park.

The courthouse that we have now, I believe was built in 2008. 

2013 is when you got there, I think Judge Carman? 

Judge Carman: Correct. 

Judge Hambrick: So they built a new small courthouse up there,, right inside the entrance to the park. 

Erin Gust: And what cases do you generally see?

Judge Hambrick: We see a lot of just general traffic cases, speeding tickets, , failure to report an accident, all kinds of those things. And then more park specific. We see a lot of, , being too close to the wildlife, , trespassing on the thermal [00:10:00] features, getting too close to those and being where you're not supposed to be.

So those are more of the park specific ones we see pretty frequently. But a lot of it's just your basic, traffic violations, DUIs and things like that. 

Erin Gust: Wow. DUIs in the national park. That's kind of surprising. 

Judge Hambrick: Unfortunately, it's not that unusual.

Judge Carman: During my tenure we went from having, entirely alcohol related, DUIs to now drug related DUIs, which were more complicated, a little more difficult to prove and require blood draws.

So, we went from doing very few search warrants to doing search warrants, , on a regular basis. Always in the middle of the night, of course. 

Erin Gust: And so, how does that work? Are you just phone is on loud? Just kind of throughout the entire summer months, 

Judge Hambrick: Year-round really. We don't get as many in the wintertime, but yeah, just sort of on call more or less twenty-four seven for those search warrants.

And they come in, in the middle of the [00:11:00] night and you get up and get your computer going and review those. The park rangers actually, , made a checklist form that they use, so they can do them very quickly. Makes them very easy to review, pretty quickly and get back to them.

I think another, unique thing though, talking about practitioners in Yellowstone Park is, we have a local rule that I believe is unique in the whole country. So normally to appear in the court in Wyoming Federal District Court or the 10th Circuit, you have to be admitted to practice in those courts.

And we see defendants, from all over the country and all over the world. And essentially, we don't have a local bar right to the Mammoth courtroom. Our closest town is Montana, that's in the Ninth Circuit. And, Cody, Wyoming and Jackson, Wyoming are not particularly close. So, our court enacted a special local rule and an attorney who is admitted to practice anywhere in the United States if they have a valid bar license anywhere, [00:12:00] can come and practice in the courtroom in Yellowstone without local counsel, without being admitted, any of those things. So, we actually see lawyers from all over the country, who probably only practice in Wyoming in this unique circumstance. So I think that's unique to Yellowstone. But it's really quite fun to have attorneys from all over the country, come and practice. We're formal in court, but it's also a little less, formal than a lot of other courtroom settings. So, we don't use the federal public Defender's office a lot. Because they're in Casper and Cheyenne also very far from the park.

We have a CJA panel that we use, but most of those attorneys are actually in Montana. So, they're actually in the ninth Circuit. They're in Billings and Bozeman and Livingston and, a lot of other places. We have a lot of local Wyoming attorneys, as well on our panel. But a substantial part of the attorneys that we see and that we use are actually practicing in Montana.

Judge Carman: And we do have to use video more than most courts [00:13:00] because people come from all over the world, , and they come to the park and, they get a ticket and by the time their case comes up, it's not reasonable to expect them to travel back from New York or Europe, to,, come back to Yellowstone to appear in a misdemeanor.

So, we were using video quite a bit even before COVID hit. We got better technology after COVID. 

Judge Hambrick: And so, we also use a lot of interpreters. I mean, we have a lot of, European, Asian, individuals, that need interpreters. And sometimes that can be really challenging, to find all the different kinds of, languages.

And I think court in Yellowstone is different than a lot of places. typical

defendant that we see in court is not some hardened criminal who's been in trouble a lot. These are people who've come from all over the world just to visit the park.

They don't have criminal records. They're not familiar with the criminal justice system. And so the whole process to them can be pretty intimidating and, [00:14:00] scary, and they don't really understand. I usually try to say most people I see are like you. They come to the park, they don't understand the rules, and they end up violating them, not out of some evil intent or intent to harm the park, but because they don't know.

But it's incumbent upon the visitor to come to the park and educate yourself before you get here as to the important rules and things that you need to know. And in this day and age, when everyone's walking around with a supercomputer in your pocket, you know, there really isn't an excuse to not become familiar with what you need to know before you go.

Judge Carman: And it wouldn't hurt to read the signs occasionally. It's incredible that I've become convinced that nobody reads any signs, even though, we had a number of cases where people were claiming they didn't see the signs, primarily in, off trail travel and thermal areas.

And, if the Ranger sees their phone, there was a lot of times pictures of them standing with a sign and smiling. So, it was not unintentional on those part. We are somewhat [00:15:00] fortunate that the traffic in the Yellowstone is focused primarily on the, the roadway, , what we call the front country.

The back country remains, lightly used and very pristine. So, while there are millions of people, a lot of them are just going from, Old Faithful to the canyon, to the lake, and doing the loop. 

Judge Hambrick: The other thing about the park is the vast majority of the park, unless you're around like Mammoth Hot Springs or Grand Canyon area where there's visitor centers and things, there is no cell service in the park. So, people see things while they're out. They're not able to really call in immediately.

Or if you have a car wreck, you can't just call law enforcement and say. Come here, you're sort of at the mercy of passersby who then will call in when they get to cell service or, people will come to a visitor's center with a violation video on their phone and show the rangers, and then the rangers try to find the vehicle elsewhere in the park.

Um, So you [00:16:00] mentioned there used to be a jail, that used to share the same home.

Judge Carman: Yes.

Erin Gust: Is there still a jail in Yellowstone for some of these infractions, but particularly some of these bigger felonies that you see?

Judge Hambrick: There is, there's a small building, within the fort area that's the jail. It has four cells and can hold up to eight people at a time, although we've never been close to having that many. So sometimes when people are arrested, which is usually for a, something like a DUI, they can be held there until we see them in court.

But a lot of times they take them over to the Gallatin County Detention Center in Bozeman and they're housed there during the pendency of proceedings. They don't have a lot of staff to monitor people in the jail, so they try not to hold them there very long. But I think, before I got there, they would sometimes have people that were in there for quite a while.

We had two ladies on a thermal trespass that spent some time there and their comment was, that's the best jail they've ever been in and they gave it a five star [00:17:00] rating. So, so they go over and get food sometimes from the dining room, at the hotel and feed them there. We don't usually hold people there for very long, but there is a facility.

Judge Carman: When I started there, at that point in time was not an agreement with Bozeman. That's something we worked out during, my early years on the bench there. And so they actually were all the way over in Basin, Wyoming, which was a, a heck of a drive.

And so, we tended to have people stay longer in the jail during that period of time because the transportation was a major problem. I guess we're technically not supposed to call it a jail. Are we supposed to call it a detention facility or something?

Have you done a hearing at the jail, judge Hambrick? 

Judge Hambrick: No, I have not. 

Judge Carman: We had some individuals that were, well, quite frankly, there was significant mental health issues, but they posed a threat, and so they really just did not want to bring them over to the courthouse. And that was pretty rare, but I think only happened a couple of times.

I used to tell people I had a habit of, giving very short jail sentences to people that I [00:18:00] felt like, , just weren't paying attention. I would tell them, you know, if I were you, I'd serve it right here because this will be a lot nicer than the jail, you're going to go if you go back home and serve it.

And some of 'em took me up on it, some didn't, but,

Judge Hambrick: yeah, because most of our jail sentences, are arranged through the marshals, and I think they generally, if they don't go right away, the marshals try to arrange a federal facility close to where the individual lives, but that could be a wide range of not so good places to go.

Yeah, I think probably the Mammoth jail might be a little easier time. 

Judge Carman: Yeah. The jail was originally, the jail back when it was a fort was from a ship, a naval ship. And, the cages, if you will, or , the roof had stars cut into it.

And so, some of that old stuff, when it was taken out during remodel, the star was cut out of metal and they would cut out it. And they would present that to rangers upon their [00:19:00] retirement. I don't know if they still do that. 

Judge Hambrick: Did you get one?

Judge Carman: No. 

I didn't get a star. 

Judge Hambrick: Arrowhead. 

Judge Carman: Arrowhead, thank you. That's, that's what it is.

But, so, a lot of our cases are just dealing with young people, a lot of young people, and so because of the large number of well, Xanterra employees who come to the park and work. Many of them, are lacking a little direction in their lives and, they get in trouble like young people will do. And so, we tried to find ways to direct their attention in a more profitable way.

I think I lectured people a lot. I don't know that any of that was, successful, but I tried to do things with sentencing. I know judge Hambrick does that as well, to try to encourage them to move forward. One of my most common questions to young people was, where do you want to be in five years? Where do you want to be in 10 years?

Well, what are you doing to achieve that result? Then I would create probationary conditions or, a lot of times if, there were [00:20:00] fines involved, I would offer to, if within a year they would produce proof of whatever I was asking them to do, that, I would remit the remainder of the fine.

And some of them were very appreciative of it. Some were going to go the way they're going to go.

Erin Gust: So. Yellowstone docket is pretty seasonal, probably it's busiest in the summer. Do you see that reflected in the docket and how do you handle that? 

Judge Hambrick: Yeah. July and August are typically our busiest months. We kind of set out, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday mornings are for initial appearances. On violation notices.

Uh, we usually stack about 10 of those every morning. And, in the summertime they get pretty full, pretty quickly, and so they start pushing out further and further. The afternoons are spent with, status conferences. So, if somebody's pled not guilty, we set it for a status conference so the government can provide discovery.

[00:22:00] And then Fridays are kind of set aside for those cases who end up wanting to go to trial. The petty offenses, you don't get a jury trial. You're not entitled to a jury trial, so they're all bench trials. So, Fridays are set aside for bench trials.

And so in the summertime we're pretty busy, with all of those things. Right now, it's starting to slow down a little bit. We don't have, anywhere near 10 initial appearances every morning. We have a couple mornings a week, but we still have a lot of cases, that pled not guilty.

We're going through status conferences, discussing trial settings, so there's still quite a few of those that are still, pending from the winter. And those will last through January-Ish probably. And then February, March are kind of quiet, and then slowly in April it just starts to kind of pick up again.

So, both Judge Carman and I, also had some civil cases. So, we were on the civil wheel for the District of Wyoming, and so we were direct assigned a few civil cases if the parties consent. And if they don't, [00:23:00] then we are the magistrate judge for non-dispositive issues in the cases, , just like anywhere else.

So, we have those, there's always something going on there to keep you busy as well. 

Judge Carman: And I don't know if, judge Hambrick, you've had this, but, we were, in a,, sharing arrangement, trying to assist the District of New Mexico during a good part of my tenure, which was a, a great boon for me because it, gave me quite a bit of civil work, in the district of New Mexico, which I really enjoyed.

I did a lot of civil litigation in my career, and so I enjoyed the civil practice. I enjoyed the civil aspects of cases. And then I also filled in, in the district of Colorado when the magistrate judge, was ill. A terminal illness. And so I filled in there, I think that was about a year and a half.

I think we did about four or five years of New Mexico. Did a little bit with Idaho and Montana, but not as much. I did one, class action case out in Nevada. So, in addition to the docket that Judge Handbook's talking about, as she said, we do have the civil docket that we have to, we have to handle.

That [00:24:00] becomes easier during the springtime. Uh, during the summertime it can get a little onerous, especially with the, non-dispositive motions that pop up in a lot of the cases we're dealing with, , in the district of, Wyoming. So, the cycles, was pretty, pretty much as she described.

Our goal was to make sure that, we had the decks cleared by April so that when, the new crop of Xanterra employees and tourists showed up starting in May, that we were ready for them.

Erin Gust: What sort of civil cases do you usually see up there? Like the consent cases? 

Judge Carman: Well, that's not a Yellowstone docket, that's a Wyoming docket. 

So, uh, it could be anything from contract, personal injury, medical mal, any of them. 

Somebody told me one time; a magistrate judge is looking for the extraordinary among the ordinary. There is a lot of ordinary. And so, the civil docket was refreshing in, in large respect because as Judge Hambrick can say, you know, we have [00:25:00] interesting cases, we have fun cases, we meet interesting people, but a lot of it is a little repetitive.

And so, the civil docket, is the spice in the soup.

Erin Gust: And kind of throughout the conversation you've mentioned the park rangers. And my understanding is that the Yellowstone Courthouse shares a building with the park rangers, which is pretty unique to a federal courthouse. That's certainly not where I worked at the District of Colorado and the 10th Circuit.

There are no park rangers there. What is that dynamic like? 

Judge Hambrick: It works out really well. The US Attorney’s office is also in the same building. So, there's a full-time AUSA in the park as well.

Judge Carman: And we mean office. A tiny little office. 

Judge Hambrick: Yes. The US Attorney's office is very tiny. But you know, it actually works really well.

I have found working in the park, you know, it's a very small community, but people are very good about, staying in their lane. And so, everybody, you know, does their job. And sometimes you don't always agree with [00:26:00] different people and the way they're doing their job, but then outside the job, everybody's very friendly and, and gets along really well and leaves work at work.

And then if you're out in the community, it doesn't bleed over into that. And I think working in the park, people are very good at that up there. So, it makes it very, easy and pleasant to live there, in what could sometimes be some tense circumstances. But I found everybody really is good at leaving work, at work and not letting that bleed over to your sort of personal interactions.

Judge Carman: And the Park Service is a good landlord. They tended to be responsive to concerns we had. The building has had some concerns, even though it was a fairly new building, some kind of shocking concerns. But you know, they were always responsive. And while I, was not with the US Attorney's Office, and so I never worked in a GSA building, but I've been told by my comrades that, we were lucky to have, the Park Service as our landlord, that GSA isn't always as cooperative. 

Judge Hambrick: But, you know, it can get very cold up there. So sometimes in [00:27:00] January, February, or December, I mean, it's minus 20, minus 30 degree windchill and the, building that, , I live in was built in 1896, I believe. And so, it can be very cold in there. The heating facilities, they just redid them this summer.

 We got whole new brand new heating facilities in the houses, but sometimes they would go out when it got so cold. So it's minus 20 out and you're running a dozen space heaters in your house.

Judge Carman: I was there a few months ago. I saw the new heating system and heard about it, and I was kind of excited about that because boy, those were miserable when the heat went out in those houses.

Judge Hambrick: Mm-hmm.

Judge Carman: Oh, and, the electricity would go out because the one power line had gone down from Gardner and 

Judge Hambrick: I guess yesterday, I'm in Bozeman right now, but yesterday it was 57 degrees in my office. I was like, oh no, that's too, that's too cold. So they're still working the kinks out. But 

Judge Carman: I was doing a jury trial in Casper with Judge Forrester.

Was that that was before your time, right? 

Judge Hambrick: Mm-hmm. [00:28:00] 

Judge Carman: And, it was in December or January, I can't remember which. And it was cold. I mean, it was cold outside. It was 30 below. I think we had like 15 days where we never even got up to zero in Casper. And the courthouse kept getting colder and colder on the second day of the trial judge Forrester said, it is too cold in here, mistrial and slammed his cow down. And we all went home and dismissed the jury. We said, that's it. It's too cold to try a case in the courthouse. 

Judge Hambrick: That's funny. Was that in the state courthouse?

Judge Carman: Yes,

Judge Hambrick: Oh my gosh. That's funny.

I can sympathize with that.

Judge Carman: It was cold. 

Judge Hambrick:So, there's just some challenges to living up there. , The park does a really great job of keeping like the road open to Gardner and, plowed to Livingston so that you can get out, if you need to. But it, it can be really challenging, but winters in the park are beautiful. Like I said, I grew up in Casper, Wyoming, and when I moved to the park, people would be like, oh, well wait till you do a winter here.

And I'm like, I mean, you know, I, I spent seven years in Laramie, Wyoming at 7,200 feet with 50 mile an hour wind winters like. I'm not, I'm not that worried about it. And it turns out in Mammoth, we don't have the wind like that. And so [00:30:00] the snow falls, you might get a lot of snow, but it falls, and it lays there nicely.

And it's very rare that we get those winds. And I'm like, oh, this is beautiful Winter, windy winter is not fun. So, it was just funny when people were like, wait till you spend a winter here. And I felt like my background, I was pretty well equipped. And so, it is beautiful in the wintertime, but it can be challenging.

Judge Carman: Winters are nicer with snow than with brown, which is what you had in Casper. because I lived in Casper most of my career as well. So, we always said we love the summer , in Yellowstone. It's the best day of the year.

Erin Gust: So now I've got a few specific questions for Judge Hambrick.

So, you mentioned you grew up in Casper. Will you tell us a little bit about that and have has your career kind of always been in Wyoming?

Judge Hambrick: It has. I grew up in Casper, went down to Laramie, to the University of Wyoming and did my bachelor's degree there, I had a [00:31:00] professor who taught, , business law when I was getting that, that I really liked. She was really great and that sort of started my interest, I think, in the legal field, when I got ready to graduate with my bachelor's degree, I wasn't having a whole lot of success finding a job or finding something I thought, was interesting or that paid very well, and I'd always been a really good student. School is, easy for me, so I'm like, I'll just keep going to school and took the LSAT and got to law school and really felt like when I started there, I'm like, oh yeah, this is where I should be and really enjoyed it. So, I finished, I did law school at the University of Wyoming as well and finished there. I went back to Casper after I finished my law degree and was a public defender to start with. Then went to the prosecutor's office after about a year and a half of that, I left the prosecutor's office to stay home, when my son was born for a couple of years.

And while I was doing that, I did some civil practice, mostly personal injury work, that kind of thing. I actually, [00:32:00] worked in a law firm, for a short time with Judge Carman. We did a lot of oil and gas royalty cases and things like that. So that was interesting, and then in 2006, I went back to the prosecutor's office full-time in Casper, while I was there, I had, taken the position of the special assistant United States attorney with that office to do, drug cases. And so, I was starting to work some with the US Attorney's Office in Casper, and then they had an opening come up in late 2016. And I interviewed for that and I think because of my experience with them being the salsa, , got a job as an assistant United States attorney in the Casper office and started there in January of 2017 and was there, and then in late 2019, it must have been the prosecutor in the park, Lee Pico.

He'd been there many, many, many, many, many years. He was getting ready to retire and the office [00:33:00] really wanted to replace him with somebody from within the office because it's very hard to go up there. I mean, you're all alone up there as the A USA. So, my daughter had been living in Bozeman for many years and was married and getting ready to have a family, so I wanted to be closer to her.

And so, it all kind of worked out. So, I went to the park as the A USA in January of 2020. And then I wasn't expecting Judge Carman to retire so soon after I got there, but he, retired I think beginning of January 2022. 

Judge Carman: January 22. 

Judge Hambrick: And, so I put in for the, , magistrate judge position and, I think given I'd been the prosecutor there for a couple of years. I really was a good fit. So that's kind of how I got there.

Erin Gust: How has the transition to the bench been? 

Judge Hambrick: You know, it's good. You think, you know, as a lawyer, you think you know what judges do and what that would be like, but I don't think you can actually appreciate all of it until you're really [00:34:00] in the role.

There are things I miss about being a lawyer rather than a judge. The US Attorney's office, Wyoming, it's changed a lot since I left, but it's a really great office. It's a really great place to work. My colleagues in the Casper office, it really was like a work family. And there was an incredible amount of support, for your cases, for everything.

And so, it was really a great place to work. Coming to the park, even as the  USA, like I said, you're all alone up there. And same thing as the judge. Like I have a law clerk, I have a judicial assistant, and then I have a courtroom deputy. And it's just the four of us. That's our little group in the park.

The closest office is Casper, which is six hours from where we are. And so, I find it hard to be so isolated from your coworkers. The Wyoming Federal bench is fantastic. I can call any of those judges at any time, chat about any issues. They're [00:35:00] wonderful people. I would love to have them right down the hallway and be able to just go sit down and chat.

And so, I miss being a part of a physical, bigger office. I like being close to people. I don't like working from home particularly because I, I like the camaraderie. So, you know, being a judge can be a little bit isolating in and of itself just in the position you kind of lose contact with the bar in a way.

And then with the physical isolation of this particular position as well it can be challenging. I miss working with law enforcement more than I realized that I would. So especially as a federal prosecutor, you're really involved in, the cases really from the get-go and you're working closely with the agents to decide on search warrants or the path of the actual investigation itself.

And, you know, as the judge, you just sit on the bench. Not just, but you sit on the bench, and you hear the results of everything and there's a lot going on in the background that [00:36:00] you never know of. And so, it's a much different perspective that you get on a case in front of you and you realize how little you actually know about the case compared to what the lawyers behind, behind the case know. So, there are some things I miss about, being in a USA, but I enjoy being on the bench and particularly, when you go to conferences and things, you know, you hear, oh, you're, that magistrate judge.

Like people, know about the Yellowstone position. , They're envious and I think it is probably potentially the best magistrate judge position in the country. I really do.

Erin Gust: Maybe the best judge position in the country 

Judge Hambrick: Maybe, maybe, maybe. 

Erin Gust: So you're the first woman to serve in the position in Yellowstone, which is just fantastic and congratulations and amazing.

Will you please tell us a little bit about that? 

Judge Hambrick: Sure. Well, I feel honored to hold that role. For the federal [00:37:00] bench in Wyoming Judge Nancy Freudenthal just retired fairly recently and she was the first Article III judge to be appointed in Wyoming. I think in this day and age, sometimes we think that those things aren't really happening that much anymore. It's all equal, it's all the same but even just this morning, I saw in one of the federal districts in North Carolina, they had their first female article three judge appointed ever.

Erin Gust: Oh. And North Carolina.

Judge Hambrick: Yeah. So, I forget which district it was.

It was in our JNet briefings this morning. And so, I think sometimes it's a good reminder that women still are kind of breaking those barriers and are still achieving a lot of firsts, in a lot of positions. And that's important. And I'm glad we're still making those strides.

Erin Gust: That's awesome.

And it's great to see you up there. And just wonderful. I was surprised by that. And I guess maybe part of the reason, so few people have held this position, that there's only been your number six, if I'm remembering correctly.

Mm-hmm.

[00:38:00] But, um, yeah, definitely very exciting and kind of interesting for Wyoming because it's kind of the women's history there and with voting and everything, it surprised me, but yeah.

Great, great to have you up there.

Judge Hambrick: There are, two other parks that have full-time magistrate judges, Grand Canyon and Yosemite. And right now, all three, magistrate judges are females in those roles.

Erin Gust: Wow. Okay. Didn't know that either.

Judge Hambrick: Yeah.

Erin Gust: Lots of great facts today. And yeah.

Three amazing parks. I would put the Yellowstone or maybe those, two places as the best potential judge ships, in the country. Those also sound fascinating.

Judge Hambrick: Yeah. 

Judge Carman: They're not as good because the judge actually, Grand Canyon, I think she lives in Flagstaff, doesn't she? And has to commute.

Judge Hambrick: Yes. 

Judge Carman: And the one in, Yosemite has a lot of duties down in Fresno, so spends a lot of time down in Fresno, I think, heavy social security docket. And she has to, come back and forth a lot while the judgeship in, Yellowstone actually lives full-time in the park. [00:39:00] And it's a little more, focused than the other, magistrate judge positions.

Judge Hambrick: And in Yosemite, the judge's clerk when they're there in courts in session, actually stays with her in whatever housing they provide because she doesn't have anywhere else to stay. And I also think that, , the Park Service in Yellowstone is much more supportive of the courthouse and the activities, or we just, we get a lot more support from, Yellowstone than some of those other places. 

Erin Gust: Good to know. Good to know. Okay. So, Yellowstone, the most coveted judgeship in the country. God living in the northern part of the park. It's just for the listeners who have not been up there, it's just stunning up there.

Judge Hambrick: It's beautiful. It really is.

Erin Gust: And moving now to Judge Carman, will you please tell us about your path to the Yellowstone bench? 

Judge Carman: My, graduate degree is out of Colorado State in wildland hydrology or watershed sciences.

So, I was in the natural resources field, but I became [00:40:00] interested in water law and so I applied to University of Wyoming because that's where Frank Trelease was, who was, I mean, literally wrote the book on water law. I got accepted and, he retired, so I never actually met the man. So, I graduated from University of Wyoming, college of Law in 1981, and, started out as a prosecuting attorney, in Casper.

Then I, actually moved to California and prosecuted in California for a period of time but became homesick and came back to Wyoming and went into civil practice. I was with the law firm of Williams Porter Neville in Casper for a good period of time. Then we had Balzer Carman Murdock. That's where we, crossed paths with Judge Hambrick.

Then we did branch offices for Balzer, Carman Murdock. And I ended up, going to Billings, Montana. Then that firm, went away and, I had a sole practice, litigation practice, and that's what I was doing at the time that I saw the announcement that Judge Cole was going to retire.

Judge Cole had taken the position the same year I graduated from law school. So, he'd been in that position since 1981 and we [00:41:00] were now up to 2012, Judge Cole has had a series of health problems. In fact, he passed away about six months after he retired in, the fall of 2012. And, so, I'd applied for a magistrate position before and not been successful for the Cheyenne position. I always thought that was a great job. And, I can't emphasize enough what Judge Hambrick said about the court family in the District of Wyoming. It is, it is phenomenal. And these are all people I've known, for many, many years.

I went to law school with Judge Freudenthal, Judge Skavdahl. He came to Casper right out of law school, played softball with him. And we were in the same firm for periods of time. Then we were on opposite sides of cases at various times. And I consider him a great friend. So, I put in my application for it.

I was selected for the position.

Erin Gust: So based on my research, you're known for sometimes some unique sentencing and punishments. Will you tell us about those practices [00:42:00] while you were on the bench? 

Judge Carman: I have touched on a little bit, where I tried to come up with, ways to get people focused, young people especially. Because a lot of the people that came to the park were just, they're just wandering. They don't have any direction. They just don't have a lot of focus about what they're doing.

They're just out there. And we did a lot of pot cases. We had a program that, we used, which I don't know whether you guys use anymore, but we put them on one year of probation. Now, things have changed regarding the enforcement of laws regarding marijuana, obviously throughout the country.

And, they would actually be unsupervised probation, for a period of a year. And then the charge would go away. And that gave me some ability to actually have a probation officer dealing with them. To be involved in that program, you had to be somebody who really wanted to try to make some differences.

Like I said, if I had somebody that didn't have a GED, I really wanted them to get their GED. If they had attended some college and they had some interest, I'd try to find ways to encourage them to go back to college. If they paid tuition, I'd give them credit off their fines for [00:43:00] it.

I would also, if I felt like people just weren't paying attention. Would use short jail sentences. I didn't give a lot of really long jail sentences. There were a few people who earned those, but for the most part, it was just supposed to be like a wakeup call to get you to pay attention and say, here, this could be what you're looking at.

And, also, we had a minor in possession, minor in possession of alcohol that tended to be a common thing in the park, with the young people who came in and previously they were just charging them with minor in possession and they would end up with a very minor, but nevertheless a criminal conviction for it.

And I just hated to see those people get criminal convictions over that. So, I started a minor in possession program, and it consisted of three parts. First of all, they had to come in, they had to agree to take an online class about alcohol education that we had located, and they had to pay for it.

They had to stay out of trouble for the rest of the period of time that they're in the park. And they had to do a session with me. And so, we would have [00:44:00] sometimes just two or three, sometimes six or seven or eight, grouped together. And they would come in, in the afternoon to the courthouse and I would obviously not from the bench.

I'd get off the bench, go down and just sit with them and chat with them. And we would talk about why are there alcohol laws? Why are they a good thing? You know, my first question was always, what do you think the legal drinking age should be? If they said 21, I thought they were just trying to make the judge happy.

Most of them wanted to say 18 or 19. We talk about why the law was created. It started during the Reagan administration. Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, pushed it, to get it raised to 21. And in fact, it had a substantial reduction in the number of drunk driving deaths after it was enacted.

And we talk about alcoholism. Uh, we talk about whether they had family members have alcohol problems, what it was like to be a family member. And just, , as I tell them at the end, you know, you're going to go out and you're going to do whatever you want to do, but if you're going to drink at your age, I want you to at least think about what you're doing before you do it.

And be aware that there are risks [00:45:00] involved. And it's not just a it's not a harmless substance. Those conversations were really pretty fun. For the most part. They were interesting, interactive. We would get people from Eastern Europe who came in and worked in the park. Well, they'd been drinking hard liquor since, fairly young.

And they didn't understand why we had these laws and why it wasn't okay for them to drink. Uh, we talk about, you know, whether maybe European countries had a little better attitude towards alcohol, introducing it slowly. Did they have less alcoholism or more alcoholism than the United States?

Uh, they were fun conversations. They usually came in pretty tense and closed mouth, but by the time they left, they were chatting, they were enjoying it. I didn't lecture them. And so, they were pleased. And, I enjoyed that. , My girls had grown up, so I had some other kids to lecture who probably listened to me just about as carefully as my daughters did.

Yeah. 

Judge Hambrick: And so, what's kind of interesting about that? [00:46:00] I mean, I don't know. I think it's interesting. I got it there in 2020 and with COVID and the park being closed, like that year, we didn't have very many MIPs.

Judge Carman: Yeah, that program kind of died out. 

Judge Hambrick: The program did kind of die out, and I rarely see an MIP ticket now.

There's, I'm sure a variety of reasons behind that. But one of the main, areas where kids would gather and drink and get tickets called the Boiling River. It was sort of a natural hot spring in the river, close to Mammoth, during the flood that we had a few years back. It kind of wiped out that, that part of the river.

And so that's not really a gathering spot for young people anymore. And I don't know if there's some deemphasis on writing minor in possession tickets, but I rarely even see them anymore. So, I don't have that same opportunity that Judge Carman had to kind of interact with some of the kids that way.

And in terms of the marijuana cases under the Biden administration, they were, issuing pardons for misdemeanor marijuana [00:47:00] convictions, and things like that. So, there was a lot of that happening in the park. And so, the Rangers and the US Attorney's office weren't really enforcing, the law against possession of marijuana in the park.

The new United States attorney for Wyoming has announced that they will again be, strictly enforcing those marijuana laws again in the national parks. And so, maybe we'll see some more of those types of things coming back. But the MIP program really kind of just died. I like to think young people maybe aren't drinking as much, but I, I think that's probably not not the case.

Judge Carman: But probably not.

Judge Hambrick: So yeah, so I haven't had a really an opportunity to implement a program like Judge Carman did. 

Judge Carman: The only other thing I can think maybe I tried to do was I'd get cases. Okay. I had a, a family from Oregon that came in and they were, you know, nice family on vacation and they were collecting petrified wood, which of course is a no-no.

And that's a non-renewable resource, obviously. And [00:48:00] so the whole family comes to court and, it's a parent and I think there was three children, getting quite young and, what am I going to do with this nice family on vacation who's collecting petrified wood? And they didn't know that it wasn't okay to do, and it was their kind of family hobby.

They collected rocks together. And so, I had them write essays to the court and, I actually kept one of them from the, I think it was the little boy named Spencer. Uh, what did he write?

I don't know if I can find it. I kind of tried to make a note of it, but he wrote a little note that basically said, now I know not to pick up rocks in YNP even though one of my favorite hobbies is picking up rocks, Spencer, you know, the Parrots. And I used that on a couple of occasions where I had people just write essays for me now, they just used ai, so that wouldn't work.

But, you know, I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to punish 'em too hard. I didn't want to hit with a big fine on their [00:49:00] vacation, but I thought we need to try to find a way to make it a teaching moment for 'em.

Erin Gust: So, both of you mentioned kind of working in the park during COVID. Could you talk about what that was like? 

Judge Carman: COVID had a substantial impact, obviously, not only on the visitation, but also on our community. One of my great joys in the summertime, because summers are busy, we work long hours in the summer, and then, you go to bed and then they call and get a warrant in the middle of the night, and then you're up, seeing people the next morning and you're dealing with the rest on the weekends as well.

So, it's, it's a seven day a week job. But there was a softball league in Yellowstone and there's teams of a couple of areas. There were teams down by the lake teams at Old Faithful and Teams up in Mammoth. And then at the end of the season, you'd have a championship.

The top teams from each district would travel around the park and play each other for the park championship. And it was one of my great joys was playing on that team and interacting with the people. But COVID killed it. You know, I don't even know if it, [00:50:00] are they playing softball again?

Judge Hambrick? 

Judge Hambrick: I think they're trying to, Mike Keller tried to coerce me into being on the softball team, but I, declined the 

Judge Carman: And Mike Keller's team is the geezers, and we did win the championship most years. Most years. There was one other team in Mammoth that was very competitive, and it usually came down to those two teams.

It was, yeah, Mike Keller, he loved it. He pitched on the team. Well, you should play. 

Judge Hambrick: No. 

Judge Carman: But it got harder and harder because when I first started, Mammoth's, you know, Xanterra employees would field a couple of teams and it got where, they just, yeah. They didn't want to play softball.

And so anyway

yeah.

But that was just kind of one little element, you know, throughout it just disrupted community throughout America, obviously. 

Judge Hambrick: Mm-hmm. 

Judge Carman: And it to interfere with social functions. We had people who retired during COVID who deserved to have that celebrated. Mm-hmm. And the celebrations didn't happen.

And of course it affected [00:51:00] visitation, we had mask issues, I was enforcing the mask policy in my courtroom. I was using video of course a lot, and, I had people who were very unhappy about the mask policy and trying to deal with that. And I think I got grievance to buy somebody, with the 10th circuit on one of those.

It wasn't like we were having a lot of cases, or things of that nature, but it was just a, an ongoing concern, of little micro tragedies. We didn't have any major, we didn't have any deaths that I'm aware of in the park, but, uh, it just disrupted everything.

Judge Hambrick: And, you know, we did have those cases of people, when the park was closed, who were coming into the park anyway, and weren't supposed to be in there. So that's kind of primarily the cases that we saw during that timeframe. But like I said, we had just moved there, and I really think it was within two weeks that, everything shut down.

And so, it was a long time before we really got to meet anybody, neighbors, anything like that, or get to know our new community. [00:52:00] And the park was really diligent during COVID. I mean, they had a team that would come around. I want to say once a week and administer, a COVID test if you were concerned.

And they'd come to the office building and anybody who wanted to get a COVID test, you know, that was before the take home test. They would, do testing. They were really diligent about trying to provide as much support and, , services geared towards COVID, you know, as they could during that time.

I think when the vaccines first came out, the park was able to get some of those pretty early on. And so if you wanted to get vaccinated early on during that, that was available as well. So, they actually handled it really well, and then in 2023, I believe it was, we had the big flood in the park.

And so the road to Mammoth was actually closed for months. More or less. You could go up and down twice a day. That was it. Otherwise, [00:53:00] Mammoth was completely cut off from Gardner and from getting out of the park. So that was another pretty challenging time. That was, judge Carman had already left by then, but Mammoth was very quiet during that, timeframe as well, much like in COVID.

But that was a, another really challenging, timeframe since I'd been up there.

Erin Gust: Wow. Yeah, I feel like, the isolation and then the cutoff of the floods once we're coming back, that had to be really tough to try to, okay, I'm going to go to a small community and then it's going to get even more isolated. 

Judge Hambrick: It was, we would, drive down to West Yellowstone for grocery sometimes, which is not close.

Judge Carman: And, the replacement road, the temporary road they built, I've only driven it a few times, but , it is miserable compared to the road that was washed out. I hate driving that road.

Erin Gust: Fair. So, what is y'all's favorite part? I guess favorite part of the Yellowstone National Park. Is there a hike? Is there kind of an area. 

Judge Carman: My whole [00:54:00] family rides horses and, so, , I had the opportunity, and this was probably the single best part of being the judging Yellowstone National Park, was to go in the back country on horseback with rangers.

I haven't seen the whole park, but I've been to each of the individual areas, and it'd be hard to tell you which one of those was the most spectacular because the park is very different. You go down to the Beckler area, it's wet waterfalls lakes. If you go to the, Eastern Park, go up, to the Continental divide, where it, turns into Forest Service land.

The hoodoos are up there, which is incredible rock formation. It's like a two-day horseback ride, Pelican Valley, the thoroughfare, which is down in the southeast corner. It's all incredible. But I saw this question on your, outline and my favorite place is on Lake Yellowstone.

And, to, find some way to get a little bit out of Mammoth in the chaos. My wife and I had a boat on Lake Yellowstone, and we would, take the boat out and there are [00:55:00] back country campsites that you can only get to by boat. So, you go all the way down the lake and, they have a dock that they take out in the wintertime, but it's there in the summertime and you, you tie up your boat and there's no sound of another human being anywhere in the vicinity.

There's no boats on the lake, the knights are so still., I have to think that the southern part of Lake Yellowstone was, is my favorite place.

I stalled for you, judge Hambrick. What do you got?

Judge Hambrick: I would love, I would love to do a trip like that, someday. Oh my gosh. I mean, we like to get out some in the wintertime and do, some cross-country skiing in the park. And one little trail that I just really enjoy. It's pretty easy because I'm not a expert cross country skier by any means. But there's the road up to, it's called Tower Falls. And there's a store up there. But they close that road in the wintertime and it's open for cross country skiing. And you you can see the Black Canyon of the Yellowstone. There's some [00:56:00] really cool rock formations.

It's an easy ski. If you want, you can ski all the way down to where you can see the falls that are, frozen over. I think getting out in the park in the wintertime is really, almost one of the best things that you can do. I've been down to Old Faithful and stayed down there at the snow lodge during the wintertime and seeing, Old Faithful go off in the wintertime.

There's hardly any people around. That's pretty amazing as well., It's hard to pick, like Judge Carman said, the park is really so diverse, each place has its own, unique, features and, reasons to visit there. I think getting out in the wintertime is really one of the best parts.

Erin Gust: Good to know. I need to plan a trip. I've only ever been in the summer, and only, I think the highlights. 

Judge Hambrick: Yeah, it's amazing. In the wintertime, it's like a whole different park. 

Erin Gust: Do you see much of the wildlife, I guess the bears are probably hibernating, but I guess the wolves seem to still be out.

Judge Hambrick: The wolves are out the bison; you still see a lot of the [00:57:00] bison. I don't know that you see the elk so much out in the wintertime. But the bison and the wolves for sure, foxes and coyotes are out. So there's actually quite a bit of wildlife still to see. 

And they tend to use the roadways are snow covered for over snow travel, but the animals tend to use them as well because it's easier to get through them. So, I think you can see a lot of wildlife if you take a snow coach tour. A snowmobile ride. Yeah.

Thanks, judge Hambrick and Judge Carmen. This has been part one of the Tales from the 10th Yellowstone series. Keep an eye out for additional episodes coming soon. I. 

This is Tina Howell, the editor and producer of Tales from the 10th. Subscribe and download at the Historical Society's website, 10th circuit history.org, or at Apple Podcast, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcast.

 Special thanks to Greg Kerwin, Brent Cohen, Stacy Guion, Leah Schwartz and Diane [00:58:00] Bowers. Feld.